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Boiler is overfilling
  • I had an annual routine boiler maintenance done, before which we hadn't run the heat since last season. Last weekend one radiator spewed rusty water all over the kitchen floor, leaking down into the basement. The sight glass was dirty so it was hard to see, but it looked full to the top, so I had the plumber come back, and he said that the boiler was overfilled, even though none of us touched the valves or the auto-water-feeder. He re-flushed the entire boiler, replaced the sight glass after it broke while removing it to clean it, put in the cleaning solution to help it stay clean, and left. The boiler was off, and the water level in the sight glass was well below the indicated "fill-to-here" line.

    Now, when I just turned the heat on again, I could hear banging. I ran downstairs and the water in the sight glass was bubbling and approaching the top of the glass. When I checked the radiators, this time it was one in the sunroom that was overflowing brown water.

    Why is this happening? How does the auto-feed determine how much water to feed? I didn't even hear it running. Do I call the plumber again?
  • Anyone? I already tried calling Gateway, but they're booked up for today and the receptionist hasn't gotten back to me. I don't want to go through the whole weekend unable to turn my heat on.

    Do I give Plungy a call? Frankly, I'm a bit weary of having each guy say the other guy doesn't know what they're doing. All I know is that the guy who used to service my boiler did a great job for a fair price, and he came back unbegrudgingly if there was any issue ever.
  • the auto feed works like a toilet bobber. when the level is corrct it shuts off. it is either "sticky" ie; rusty plugged, and or starting to fail. also a bypassing fill faucet will do this.(bad washer)call
    Phil Masucci ( a regular on here) look in plumbers advertising! good luck (973 763 8420)
    Post edited by locowolfy at 2010-10-29 13:05:57
  • Thanks, locowolfy. I just called him; he's on a job, but will try to get here later this afternoon. He said the auto-feed is prone to failure, but he'll take a look at it and see what's going on.

    He did point out over the phone that I probably have a valve that will allow it to be shut off, and indeed I think that's the case. So, if I need to turn the heat on, I can drain some of the water out and then close off the valve between the auto-feed and the rest of the system.
  • the auto feed usually has a small sump built in and needs dismantled to be cleaned. also trick also, take a wine glass(long stem) and hold it to the feeder, and listen for the"sssssssss" also do to faucet. easy find!! Phil is good!!
  • jasper,

    2 possibilities:

    1. pinhole leak in the fill valve.

    2. auto-feed doesn't wait long enough after the low-water cutoff kicks in to start filling.

    It wasn't clear from your original post, but do you know that your auto-feed added water? If not, I'd look at possibility one first. If you know for sure that your fill valve isn't leaking (those leaks can be really tiny, but add a ton of water to the system in 24 hours or so), then your auto-feed may be kicking in and adding water to the system before the steam that was sent up has a chance to condense and return to the boiler. Try adjusting the setting such that no water is added until at least 10 minutes have elapsed since your system hit the low water cutoff level.
  • Thanks, mergele.

    Phil Masucci was here, and he recommends against using the auto-feed. I'm not sure if it was the culprit or not, but we shut the valve so it can no longer feed, and I will check the boiler regularly to see if it is filling up regardless, in which case he'll need to come back and replace the fill valve.

    Meanwhile, I told him that one side of the house doesn't get hot while the other side does, and he found that the whole venting system on the main lines that go up to the rest of the house is old and, as I've been told by previous plumbers, "he's never seen anything like it before." So, he's coming back next week to re-do that piping and check the balancing of all the radiators, and hopefully for all the money we pay PSE&G every winter, our house might actually be warm all over.

    After I'm done fixing this house, I'm going to move into the poor house.
  • This sounds like a 2-pipe system where venting and pressure are critical. I don't think you're done with this just yet.
  • Yes, Master Plvmber, it is a 2-pipe system, and the valves on the two main pipes are apparently more than a little peculiar. It will be a much happier winter for me if Phil can get the system working the way it should, as the room that I use as an office on days when I work from home is on the cold side of the house, and I end up having to run a space heater in here, which draws down so much power that it makes my lamp flicker, and of course my computer is running on that same circuit. Well, you get the picture. Not good.
  • Looks like the valve is leaking, as the sight glass is now full. I called Phil and he called me right back. He'll be here on Monday to replace the valve, and advised me to drain off about a bucket a day until then to keep the water from backing up the pipes and out the radiator vents.
  • Careful, you may have vacuum vapor system. If so you will need special main vents and not just the usual Gorton #1 type.
  • Bypass valve may be letting water into the system if you have automatic feeder.
  • This must be the cats' fault! :wall:
  • Yes, Hoodwink is very interested in the boiler and is studying for her plumber's license.
  • I told you - I think she was trying to tell me something when she was hanging out there...
  • She's a very busy girl, overseeing all developments that require her intervention, which is pretty much anything and everything.

    Now our outdoor hose won't turn off all the way. If we let her out, you can be sure she'd find this permanent fountain quite handy. Good thing the plumber is coming back tomorrow. The more things we fix, the more things break, or so it seems.
  • Posted By: plungyCareful, you may have vacuum vapor system. If so you will need special main vents and not just the usual Gorton #1 type.

    I have no idea what that means, but here is the section that is going to get replaced:
    Steam Pipes-1.jpg
  • Happiness is the sound of (mildly) clanking radiators on a chilly day.

    Phil's guys came this morning to replace the fill valve on our boiler, and it's humming along nicely now without overfilling.

    And would you believe that the radiators on the "cold side" of the house are actually heating up all the way across the coils? So now I don't know if I need to have the re-piping done. I'll see how it goes for the next day or so.
  • It's not a 2 pipe vapor vacuum system, The picture above is the 2 main line vents that are leaking..
    I'm Happy the boiler is working good and we could help!:)
  • Thanks, Phil. I'll let you know in a day or so how things are going and we can discuss whether the additional work still makes sense. Now that the temperature is up to the thermostat setting and the boiler is not running steadily, only the first few coils are still warm.

    That's the thing that confuses me about the way the heating system works. Once the house is basically at or near the set temperature, the boiler only seems to kick on for a short period at a time, and the radiators don't always have a chance to fully heat up before it turns off again. I know you'd say that the room where the thermostat is needs to have its vent closed down further, but believe me when I tell you it's hardly ever "hot" in that room.

    In any case, we'll be in touch and see what you think makes the most sense. If the piping work is still the right thing to do, then we'll do it.
  • "That's the thing that confuses me about the way the heating system works. Once the house is basically at or near the set temperature, the boiler only seems to kick on for a short period at a time, and the radiators don't always have a chance to fully heat up before it turns off again."

    The most basic operation taking place in these system are one of the following two:

    1. The Tstat calls for heat. The boiler fires and pushes steam thru the pipes to the Rads. Each Rad vents cold air and take in steam at a rate set by the size of the vent. You have fast vents (Bigger holes) and slow vents (Smaller holes). The Rads will stop filling when the vent senses steam. When the steam in the Rads condenses back to water the heat is released to the Rad vanes. At that point the Vent will call for more steam, each time filling more and more of the Rad. This cycle will continue until the Tstat feels the set temp and turns off the boiler. If the system balance is off, (or set by design) the Tstat will feel warm before all the Rads get hot or even heat all the vanes.

    2. Condition two is all of the above, however, the Tstat is not feeling the warm you asked for, so the boiler and the Rads keep playing their dance. At some point that rads will be full of steam and the steam is not condensing because the Rad is exchanging all the heat that they can. Steam pressure will build in the piping and when that pressure is sensed by the boiler, the boiler will shut down. No sense making steam that the Rads can not use. If the Tstat is still calling for heat and anyone of the Rads needs more steam the vent will call for it and if needed the boiler will build the pressure back up until it trips the pressure sensor. This pressure point is set and is part of the balancing of the system. If it is too high the boiler will burn away wasting fuel that the Rads can not use.

    That is the cycle and it is rather simple. It can get complex.

    I saw a system once where the Tstat was near a window that the Mom liked to crack open. The cold air kept the Tstat cold so the boiler was always firing, and the pressure setting was set way high. The boiler would never shut down and the oil bills were quite high. The kids in the bedrooms were hot so they would open a window to cool the rooms down. Once we relocated the Tstat, reset the boiler and balanced out the Rads the fuel bill fell off sharply and most of the windows stayed closed.

    Does this help you understand that cycle and what Phil told you?

    Later,
    The UPS Store
    George
    Post edited by jgberkeley at 2010-11-01 19:18:19
  • Wow, George, thanks for explaining all of that. I had only a basic understanding, certainly not to that level of detail, and I didn't know about the pressure aspect.

    Right now our house is comfortably toasty, but it's not that cold outside just yet. The real test comes in the dead of winter, when the lack of insulation in our walls puts the system to the test.
  • My advice is that you need to fix the Main Vent problem first. Without that venting fixed the rest is not likely to do much good.

    As to the $900, that is not a question of time.

    This is Black Iron country. One needs big cutters, machine threaders and big tools to bolt together what you need to get your main vents working again. If you get someone in there that wants to use copper throw them out of your basement.

    One also needs the know how as this is not in the realm of DIY work.

    Add the cost of insurance, licenses and running a fleet of trucks and you will find $900 to be much cheaper than if you were to try to do this.

    And, for the $900, if something goes wrong you will have a plumber there to solve it. The game is all about your name, and good contractors work to keep the name clean. That means that they don't guess, don't take chances and do the job as right as they can the first time.

    Stuff does happen, but, I would rather it happen win I'm in the game with a good plumber rather than some dude working out the back of a station wagon.

    Later,
    The UPS Store,
    George
  • Main Vent.

    This is photo of a Main Vent.

    Things to note, this Main vent is located near the conversion of the Mains to the Wet Return.

    This Main vent system was modified in that a Tee was added and two Main Vents were installed to allow a quicker venting of the Mains.

    Note the placement away form the 90 fitting, and note the small plug in the 90 fitting.

    The original Main vent was just a Rad vent and was installed into that 90. Well, it was way too small and flooded all the time with condensate water. Moving the tap up the the main pipe resolved the condensate flooding and adding the second Main vent tuned the system to vent fast and correctly.

    Note, no use of copper at any time.

    Later,
    The UPS Store, George
    Main vent location.JPG
  • Posted By: jgberkeley
    This Main vent system was modified in that a Tee was added and two Main Vents were installed to allow a quicker venting of the Mains.


    I only see the one vent that sticks up out of the main about a foot before the 90 degree elbow. Is there a second one up the line nearer to the boiler?

    Note, no use of copper at any time.

    Can you explain why the iron pipe is better than the copper? Is it a strength issue, a corrosion issue, or a heat retention issue?

    Thanks!
    Post edited by jasper at 2010-11-06 14:26:16
  • "then there's copper-which is the only pipe I use. It costs money. It costs money because it saves money" (cosmo castorini-moonstruck)

    oots
    Post edited by oots at 2010-11-06 14:47:34
  • Back to my picture of a Main vent. This is a picture after we removed the Rad vent from the Main, but before we added a Tee and two Main vents.

    We were tuning the system and the Mains were not venting fast enough for me. I do not have a picture of the two mains, forgot to take it.

    That Main vent is a Hoffman brand. Do not consider Vari-type of vents on the Mains.
  • Copper vs Black iron. The answer to your question, IMHO, is none of the above.

    Simply they are different metals. When exposed to steam heat they expand and contract at different rates. When you have that going on you will get popping, twisting and leaks. In some cases I have even seen where the solder on the copper joint has melted out, though that is pretty rare.

    And, from an engineering point of view, consider this. In a given run of pipe with a given flow of steam you will develop a rate of heat loss thru the pipe and the resulting condensate flow. In Black Iron systems that is a constant rate and the design and pitch of the pipes considers these facts.

    Now cut out a 5' section of that very same pipe and replace it with a copper run because it is easy to work with. Now you have a new problem. The section of copper pipe will radiate heat at a different rate than the Black Iron. More heat will be transferred, quicker, to the air around that copper section. That means that inside that pipe more condensate will develop and in cases where the pitch is not set correctly can cause water blocks and small explosion like events inside the pipe as the steam builds up and blast its way past that slug of water. These 'water hammers' are not good for your pipes.

    The problem here is not the heat loss into the basement, rather the development of the condensate and water flow inside the pipe. Insulation over this copper area will reduce the effect as with less heat loss you have less condensation of water.

    Now keep in mind all the above is on the steam side of the boiler. On the 'wet return' side, the side where condensate water is flowing back to the boiler, the use of copper is pretty common as the temperatures are lower. This is an area of debate among plumbers.

    The heating system for my UPS Store, Dunkin Donuts and a few offices was replace last season by The Master Plumber and crew. The only copper in that system is the cold water feeder pipe and the wet return side. That may indicate his preferences.

    Later,
    The UPS Store
    George
    Post edited by jgberkeley at 2010-11-07 09:59:12
  • Picture of The UPS Store boiler. Note that copper is only on the water feed and the wet return system. Big Solid Black Iron on all the headers.
    P3300037.JPG
    Post edited by jgberkeley at 2010-11-07 11:22:12
  • Double Main vents. Not mine, just a set I had a picture of.
    Main Vents3.jpg
    Post edited by jgberkeley at 2010-11-07 11:17:45
  • Thanks, George, for the explanation about the piping material.

    In the picture below, the section that needs to be replaced in our system is the two vertical green pipes down to where they meet with a horizontal green pipe (the wet return, yes?), and the two sections of insulated pipe (just above the downward facing vents) back to the first elbow (on the left one) or join (on the right one). The vents would be placed on the top of that horizontal section, presumably just after the join. Would you say that those pipes should still be iron rather than copper?

    You can also see some of the copper piping in this picture, which was done before we bought the house and is not insulated. Should it be, at least for the part that is not right next to the wall and therefore not wrappable?
    Boiler-1.jpg
  • And just for the sake of completeness, here is a picture of our boiler and the surrounding piping. The wrapped pipe coming off to the left and then towards you in the upper left corner of the image is the same as the one on the right in the earlier picture.
    Boiler-2.jpg
    Post edited by jasper at 2010-11-07 14:01:07
  • Counterflow on the header. Not cool, yo.
    And those upside down air vents are filled with cork or another material which expands when it gets wet and seals off air/steam from venting. They're a good, simple design but misapplied in this case. They work best when piped over a convector element which would force them to dry more quickly and resume venting.
    Have that leak fixed on your backflow preventer, Jasper, and find out why the discoloration on the draft diverter jacket panel (are you due for a chimney cleaning?).
  • Jasper,

    Two things:

    1. Copper at the ends of the mains is not big deal. The vents are past any of the radiator risers. Radiator-bound steam won't even be traveling through those pipe sections.

    2. The near-boiler piping is wrong. The piping will cause a lot of boiler water to be driven into the mains and this will cut efficiency. I have attached a picture which I hope illustrates some of the problems. The only thing I can't say is whether or not redoing the near-boiler piping will save enough in heating bills to pay for itself.

    3. The yellow arrow shows the direction of steam flow from the boiler.
    jasper_boiler.jpg
    Post edited by tjohn at 2010-11-07 14:56:31
  • Those vents have my interest. I will not hurt anything, would you cut the insulation off one of them, say a couple of feet back?

    Let us see what they are piped to.

    Later,
    The UPS Store,
    George
  • Posted By: jgberkeleyThose vents have my interest. I will not hurt anything, would you cut the insulation off one of them, say a couple of feet back?

    Let us see what they are piped to.

    Hey, how about if everyone just comes on over to my house for a boiler party? :-)

    I suppose we could try to take some of the insulation off, but there are those plastic sleeves around the elbows that may make it a bit tricky. I'll ask Mr. J if he can do it and post pictures if we're successful later this evening.
    Post edited by jasper at 2010-11-07 15:45:07
  • Just cut the plastic, You can tape it back together later.

    Boiler party!!!

    Tjohn and I have been to a couple.
  • Mr J. and I took a close look at the whole system tonight based on all the input here, and we definitely have more questions than answers. We did do a closer inspection of that piping above where the upside down vents are, and it seems fairly certain that they're just a continuation of the iron pipe, wrapped in insulation. It was too late to start messing with it tonight by the time we got to it; is there something in particular you expect to see under the covers? Are you just trying to confirm that it's iron rather than copper?

    What was of greater concern was the segments of copper piping that were retrofitted in between sections of iron pipe along both lines that are clearly still carrying steam up to the radiators. Based on what was explained earlier, that seems completely wrong. We also couldn't understand the piping of the cold water return into the boiler. And we certainly took notice of the oxidation on the outside of the backflow preventer. So, all in all, it looks like more work may be needed than just replacing the main vents.

    I know our house has poor/no insulation and drafts, but it's no wonder that we spend nearly $700/month on gas in the worst months of the winter and still walk around feeling chilly.
  • "is there something in particular you expect to see under the covers? Are you just trying to confirm that it's iron rather than copper?"

    Nope, not interested in Copper v. Iron. I want to see how those vents are installed. Are they tapped into the pipe above, or are they on a smaller pipe that is running alongside of the main?

    "We also couldn't understand the piping of the cold water return into the boiler."

    I think you are mixing terms here. You cold water system is the piping that feeds cold water into the boiler. Yours is just fine looking, but as Master pointed out, you have a leak at your back flow prevention device. That is causing the green staining.

    I am guessing here, but did you mean to say that you could not understand the piping of the 'Wet Return' back to the boiler?

    If so that is part of my interest in the Vent valve piping. TJ, Phil, Master, (Plungy where are you?) looking at the boiler picture OP provided, I do not see a wet return to the boiler. It could be the angle of the photo, but even so, look at the Wet Return on my boiler photo. It is very obvious. My house system is piped without a Wet Return. The only path back for the condensate is to back drain thru the Headers. I have extreme pipe pitch so it seems to work well. I just thought that I was odd, (well we know that) but could this have a Wet Return via the headers as well?

    "What was of greater concern was the segments of copper piping that were retrofitted in between sections of iron pipe along both lines that are clearly still carrying steam up to the radiators."

    INMHO this is the least of your worries now. Take a picture, however, unless you are hearing loud Water Hammer explosions you are likely just fine. If the pitch and the size of the pipes can deal with it, then it works. I would fix other things first.

    Like:

    1. Look into the cause of the discoloration on the draft diverter jacket panel (are you due for a chimney cleaning?). Exhaust could be leaking into your home. Look up CO.

    2. Main Venting

    3. Rad balancing

    4. Leak fixing.

    Later,
    The UPS Store,
    George
  • Since I am sick with a cold and should be in bed, I am looking for things to do until Oprah comes on.

    Reading the OP is often helpful to me. Some indenpendent thoughts: In your OP, I read:

    "...Now, when I just turned the heat on again, I could hear banging. I ran downstairs ..."

    The term for what you saw is Water Hammer and is caused when you have too much Condensate return water in your Steam headers, and the steam pressure has to blast the water further up the header to escape from the boiler.

    An overfilled boiler and bad Main venting will cause that.

    Have you considered reading 'The Lost Art of Steam Heating' by Dan Houlihan?

    Later,
    The UPS Store,
    George
  • "...I ran downstairs and the water in the sight glass was bubbling and approaching the top of the glass..."

    Surging

    Not unsusual in any boiler, however, excessive surging is a sign that you need to work on the system.

    Cleaning, skimming and water level are the top to look at.

    Later,
    The UPS Store,
    George
  • "...When I checked the radiators, this time it was one in the sunroom that was overflowing brown water..."

    Condenste water in the sysytem. For this to happen the entire Header has to be flooded and the Steam pressure is pushing water up the Header pipes, flooding the Rads until the water starts to leak out the vents.

    Rads should never be full of water in your system. Rads should be full of steam turning into water, then the water should be draining back down the steam supply pipe to the Wet Return system and to the Boiler. This keeps the Rads mostly empty for more Steam.

    Later,
    The UPS Store,
    George
  • "...All I know is that the guy who used to service my boiler did a great job for a fair price, and he came back unbegrudgingly if there was any issue ever..."

    I think I would question that statement. The point of doing a season startup is to prevent all the problems that developed and to assess the overall system.

    Did this fellow address the Exhaust leak? Was the Backfill diverter leak fixed and we are just seeing the old signs of it? You Main Vents have been leaking for a while and are installed in a very odd way. Was this ever discussed?

    "...All I know is that the guy who used to service my boiler did a great job for a fair price..."

    From where I sit, I would have to agree.

    Later,
    The UPS Store,
    George
  • Posted By: jgberkeleyNope, not interested in Copper v. Iron. I want to see how those vents are installed. Are they tapped into the pipe above, or are they on a smaller pipe that is running alongside of the main?

    Oh, I can answer that. They are threaded into a hole in the vertical piping, just where the insulation ends.

    I think you are mixing terms here. You cold water system is the piping that feeds cold water into the boiler. Yours is just fine looking, but as Master pointed out, you have a leak at your back flow prevention device. That is causing the green staining.
    I am guessing here, but did you mean to say that you could not understand the piping of the 'Wet Return' back to the boiler?

    Yes, my error, and I'm now clearly aware of the backflow prevention leak. I did mean the wet return. The horizontal pipe into which those two green vertical pipes run goes along the basement wall, turns 90 degrees along the perpendicular wall, then goes down under the concrete floor and comes up just behind the boiler, and appears to our untrained eyes like it goes up into the same pipe where new steam is coming out, but I'd have to take another picture when I'm home for you to see exactly what it looks like.

    INMHO this is the least of your worries now. Take a picture, however, unless you are hearing loud Water Hammer explosions you are likely just fine. If the pitch and the size of the pipes can deal with it, then it works. I would fix other things first.

    I think you can see some of the copper piping in the photo I already attached, but we're not hearing water hammer, so I suppose it's okay. We'll look into fixing the other items you mention first and see where we stand.
    Post edited by jasper at 2010-11-08 10:11:03
  • Oh, if you look at the boiler picture, you can actually see the wet return. On the left rear corner, you can see a black pipe coming up vertically right near the boiler (there's a red spigot coming off the bottom of it at the back). It comes up to just about the level of the auto water feed, then elbows left and tees into another vertical pipe (the one that tjohn labeled as the Hartford loop). When I look at it now, I'm going to assume that there's not so much pressure on that wet return that it would force the water up the pipe, but rather the water will go down that pipe and into the horizontal one that feeds back into the bottom of the boiler near the front. If that makes sense, then I guess it's fine.
    Post edited by jasper at 2010-11-08 14:19:04
  • Posted By: jgberkeleySince I am sick with a cold and should be in bed, I am looking for things to do until Oprah comes on.

    Sorry you're not feeling well. You have to love a guy who waits for Oprah to come on. :-)

    An overfilled boiler and bad Main venting will cause that.

    Indeed, it was the overfilling that caused all the hysterical problems from the original post. Now that it's not overfilling, it's running okay - no water hammer, no leaking vents - but the radiators just never heat up all the way, and even when I set the thermostat to 70, you'd hardly say it was 70 degrees in almost any of our rooms.

    Have you considered reading 'The Lost Art of Steam Heating' by Dan Houlihan?

    I'm sure I'd never have thought of it before, but now it's sounding like a great idea.
  • Posted By: jgberkeleyCleaning, skimming and water level are the top to look at.

    I read about skimming somewhere, but I'm not sure if anyone has been doing it. Does it happen as part of the boiler flushing?

    Did this fellow address the Exhaust leak?
    No, but neither did anyone else.

    Was the Backfill diverter leak fixed and we are just seeing the old signs of it?
    Could be, but how can you tell?

    You Main Vents have been leaking for a while and are installed in a very odd way. Was this ever discussed?

    Again, at some point, at least one plumber has made one of those "I've been a plumber for [insert large number here] years and I've never seen anything like that before" comments, but nobody has ever made it clear that it needed to be changed in order for the system to run correctly until now.
    Post edited by jasper at 2010-11-08 10:52:05
  • "Oh, I can answer that. They are threaded into a hole in the vertical piping, just where the insulation ends."

    I just took two very long looks at your photo. I don't see it.

    I see what looks to be the Plastic sheild, then an outer layer of insulation, then an inner layer of insulation.

    I can not even guess where those vents are threaded into. They would be out of line with the green pipes that come down (the vertical pipes) and not over enough to tap into the horizontal pipes.

    That is why I'd like to see this area cut open.

    Later,

    The UPS Store,
    George
    Post edited by jgberkeley at 2010-11-08 13:45:27
  • On Your Wet Return:
    "When I look at it now, I'm going to assume that there's not so much pressure on that wet return that it would force the water up the pipe"

    OK, If you have an underground Wet Return that pops up behind the Boiler, I understand, and you are correct, not to worry. The Hartford loop and all will keep the pressures correct and keep the water in the Wet return side of the Boiler and no where near the 'Dry' steam side.

    Thanx,

    The UPS Store,
    George
  • Posted By: jgberkeleyThat is why I'd like to see this area cut open.

    As far as I understand, the vents are threaded right into a small hole in each of the vertical green pipes. I'll try to take a better picture this evening so you can see it from the side, and I'll remove the insulation if necessary to make it clear.
  • Posted By: jgberkeleyOK, If you have an underground Wet Return that pops up behind the Boiler, I understand, and you are correct, not to worry. The Hartford loop and all will keep the pressures correct and keep the water in the Wet return side of the Boiler and no where near the 'Dry' steam side.

    Whew, at least something is right!
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